This morning on Laura Ingraham, she played clips from Justices Scalia and Breyer at a symposium at the American University Law School. Her mocking of the position of Justice Breyer put me off, and I though she might well be mis-stating his position and erecting a straw man. Some of her callers went farther, rejecting the notion that we submit our laws to foreign review, a notion that was no where near the original subject of discussion. I looked on-line and found the C-Span archive of the event and determined to watch it. (transcript here) During the introduction, I found some other commentary which I may address later in this post. I will comment on the symposium while I watch it.
NYU Law Professor Norman Dorsen begins by noting, "Since the early nineteenth century, Supreme Court cases have relied without much fuss of fanfare on certain foreign materials. For example the court in 1855 said that the English Magna Charta was relevant to a case, and more recently in the 1960's the court relied on the so-called English Judges Rules." I would add 19th century cases are much more reliant on English jurisprudence than one might expect. Take for example, Regina v. Hicklin, L.R. 3 Q.B. 360 (1868), a Victorian era case from Britain that was influential in American courts until Butler, Roth, and Kingsley (all 1957). Regina held that a work was to be judged according to its effect on the most vulnerable: children or weak-willed adults. 89 years of influence from Regina and the law that flowed from it.
Dorsen asks what I think is the key question, in his discussion starters: "When we talk about the use of foreign court decisions in US law, do we mean them to be authority, or persuasive, or rhetorical? If, for example, foreign court decisions are not understood to be precedent, in US constitutional cases, are they nevertheless able to strengthen the sense that US law assures a common moral and legal framework with the rest of the world?" If, for example, one subscribes to the doctrine of natural law, should we not be alert to the fact that others might discover useful portions of the natural law before we do, owing to their circumstances? If, for example, one subscribes to the principle of empiricism, should we not look about in order to judge the experience of other legal experiments?
Scalia responds by saying that he only considers foreign law in treaty cases, and provides the example of a recent case where he favored the interpretation of a treaty based not on what his own original reading would have been, but on a abundance of prior interpretations, since the purpose of such agreements is a common understanding. He goes on to make an argument for American moral and legal exceptionalism. One which I think he overstates. For example, he says, "If you read the Federalist Papers, its full of statements that make it very clear that they didn't have a whole lot of respect for many of the rules in European countries." This being Publius' Salon, I will suggest I have some understanding of what our friend Publius was saying in the Federalist Papers. While there are plenty of examples to be avoided, there are likewise plenty of examples to be followed. The principle of the founders was that we should not follow an example just because it is present, but we should follow an example when it is useful.
Professor Dorsen gave us four categories.
- The first category are those who find foreign decisions authoritative. Such a person would need to find some means to reconcile contradictions among foreign materials based upon some kind of selection process.
- The second category are those who find foreign examples useful to persuade others by a demonstration of some desirable end. Since most cases involve a balancing between two or more competing interests the question often hinges on whether or not the government has an interest sufficient to restrict other interests or to balance two competing interests, such as among consumers and businesses, demonstrations of the success of a decision can tip the balance. Suppose a Tory Britain implemented a widespread school choice program. It might be used to argue against the fears of school choice opponents
- The third category are those who find foreign examples useful only as rhetorical tools, such as when a conservative Justice might write, "The socialist government of X decided on Y, and was still able to achieve the kind of equity of result the former program had achieved."
- The forth, unstated category are those who find foreign examples useless.
The founders would, by and large, fall into the second category intending to draw examples from ancient and contemporary law and constitutions as they could be usefully applied to the American circumstance.
Finally Scalia observes (correctly, I think) that no one wants foreign law to be authoritative, the question therefore is whether it should be persuasive, rhetorical, or ignored. He says, "Well if you don't want it to be authoritative, then what is the criterion for citing it not? That it agrees with you? I don't know any other criterion to bring forward." This would seem to identify the persuasive and rhetorical categories, but he seems to dismiss them. Later Breyer is telling a story of being on a panel about the three branches, and a congressmen criticizes citing foreign law. Breyer tells us he replied by saying, "if here I have a [...] judge in a different country dealing with a similar problem, why don't I read what he says if it's similar enough? Maybe I'll learn something.' To which the congressman said, 'Fine. Read it. Just don't cite it.'" This is an argument for secret knowledge and esoterica. It also might constitute plagiarism, depending on the circumstances. If the Justice got a good idea from a foreign case, what is wrong with citing it?
Well, there are some good reasons. Most of them have to do with the fear that some later reader will assume that a mention intended to persuade was citing an authority. The court cites scientific studies, social research, and engages in hypothetical conjecture, and none of these are binding on the court. Scientific studies, social research, and conjecture is meant to be persuasive, not biding. Why should a Justice make reference to these kinds of evidence, but not a case that is on point in some foreign land just because some people fear things foreign?
Breyer provides some examples of the kinds of uses to which a foreign case might be cited, including, "it's an interesting example." He also makes an interesting case, that such citation constitutes recognition by an established, powerful democracy of younger, struggling democracies, that legitimizes the rule of law over there, because its citied over here. It inverses the direction of influence. Rather than suggesting that such a citation reflects a foreign influence on our court, he argues it is an American influence on other societies that validates their law and democratic struggle.
Breyer goes on to recognize the dangers and tries to wrestle with them, asking, "How do we know we can keep this under control?" unfortunately, he doesn't develop this idea here. Breyer rambles and his speaking has a real stream of consciousness quality. His quotes have been edited (with editorial marks) because he tends to add asides or change direction mid-sentence.
And as I argued earlier in the text, Breyer cities a school choice case (though not the one I had considered) and writes about, "an opinion I wrote in a case involving the Establishment Clause and school vouchers. And, of course, one of the things I had to face from my point of view, [was that] I thought it would cause too much dissension in society, which was relevant to my legal argument. So, of course I had to face the fact in France they subsidize a religious school and it isn't the end of the earth. And the same thing is true in Britain, and other countries. So, should I be aware of that? Yes. Should I [...] feel that conscientiously I might have to deal with that in my opinion? Yes. Is it something where I'm citing only things that favor me? Of course not. I mean, what I see in doing it is this is what I call opening your eyes, opening your eyes to things that are going on elsewhere, use it for what it's worth."
Scalia makes I point I was making earlier (this is the consequence of blogging as I watch the video), "Why is it that foreign law would be relevant to what an American judge does when he interprets - interprets, not writes. I mean, the Founders used a lot of foreign law. If you read the Federalist Papers, it's full of discussions of the Swiss system, German system. It's full of that. It is very useful in devising a constitution. But why is it useful in interpreting one?" Here Scalia brings up the framers use of foreign law, but what is becoming obvious is that he rejects foreign law not because its foreign per se, but because he's a strict constructionist. As a result he'd reject anything outside of the text of the law and, as he says, "I try to understand what it meant, what was understood by the society to mean when it was adopted. And I don't think it changes since then."
Now if your theory is to exclude everything except the text and the legislative intent of the author, why discuss what role should be ascribed to foreign law? That's like having a vegetarian discuss how much beef belongs in a good stew. Scalia is really having a different conversation. If you are fond of limited judicial power and original intent (as I am) then Scalia sounds fine, unfortunately, he adds very little to this conversation, other than to play to his choir. Now and then Scalia does offer a good criticism of the use of foreign law, but its not part of any sustained argument, just a few observations. For instance, he notes, "One of the difficulties of using foreign law is that you don't understand what the surrounding jurisprudence is." This is an excellent point, since without an awareness of the problem being addressed and the checks built into someone else's legal system, and other local conditions, reading the law can be either a kind of cherry picking, or a carnival of the bizarre. He goes on to discuss the numerous appeals a death row inmate has, and so the false appearance that we let them languish, rather than giving them so many appeals. "Because we've been so sensitive to the problem of an erroneous execution, so we allow repeated habeas corpus applications. I just don't think it's comparable."
Breyer's response is that judges and the legal problems they face are more alike than they are different. I'm not sure I buy that argument, but he does have a coherent worldview at work here.
Professor Dorsen asks a pair of questions. To Justice Scalia, he asks, what the harm is in considering foreign materials. Draws in Breyer's argument that America is not really that exceptional, "Are we that far from the rest of the world in terms of the way life is lived?"
To Justice Breyer he asks, "Is it fair to criticize you and other members of the court who do refer to foreign sources, even though do not consider them binding, [because you cite] cases that support the positions that you're taking? [...] Is it a fair criticism that there's a certain selectivity that is substantively or result-oriented in the way foreign references are considered by you and those who agree with you?"
This is a nice way to focus on some of the key questions. Scalia is asked to directly address exceptionalism, and Breyer selectivity.
Breyer's answer is poor, he says, that in some places, "fewer come to our attention." That may be true, but its a poor principle to argue for the utility of foreign law. On the other hand, if they use of foreign law is mostly just to make interesting asides, why should it matter? Breyer has really only been arguing that is better to be broadly aware of the world around you than it is to take an insular, narrow view of the law. I think there is an argument to be made here, but Breyer is not making it very clearly. Scalia is so much better at organizing his statements and speaking clearly.
Scalia follows up on the question Dorsen asked of Breyer, and suggests that what "comes to our attention" will be what we like to see. He refers to an analogy by Judge Leventhal that when you survey a cocktail party you notice your friends. The others you ignore. Dorsen than allows Scalia to answer the question directed at him. This is very interesting. One the one hand, Scalia answers it well, making a good point about American exceptionalism. He points out that in Lawrence, where the Court made reference to the European law, the European law cited was not established democratically, but by judicial fiat. The Texas law was an act of elected legislators. However, on the other hand, he has selected one of his own friends at the cocktail party, hasn't he. He selected a law that was established differently in Europe than it was in America. If we were considering the Massachusetts gay marriage case, he would not have that argument. Likewise, I'm reasonably sure there are still some laws somewhere in Europe still passed by legislative bodies (though certainly seem to be shrinking in proportion to the non-democratic EU institutions). This ends up being a question of the glass being half full or half empty. Is European law sufficiently like American law that Breyer is right to they are fundamentally similar, and the one can inform the other? Or is European law sufficiently dislike American law, so that American courts cannot benefit from such an awareness? Good cases can be made both ways, and inScalia's favor, the added complexity in solving that problem first in a case by case basis would make any serious use of European law quite a problem. Nevertheless, the most big-picture kind of awareness, such as French state support for Church schools in France didn't destroy the republic, still may prove useful. Because Beryer doesn't seem interested in a systematic use of foreign law, indeed seems to reject the idea, does mitigate against this problem. Breyer refers to the Lawrence case and, in this vein, suggests the citation was merely to refute the claim that sodomy was almost universally forbidden. That seems an appropriate use of the the EU position.
Scalia goes back to his argument that we see what we want to see when we scan the cocktail party- our friends: "It invites manipulation. You know, I want to do this thing; I have to think of some reason for it. [...] I have to cite something. [...] So my goodness, what am I going to use? I have a decision by an intelligent man in Zimbabwe, or anywhere else and you put it in there and you give the citation. By God, it looks lawyerly, and it lends itself to manipulation." This is a good argument. Fine, so we add this non-binding citation of something merely persuasive, not authoritative, but it looks authoritative. Indeed it may look authoritative in a way that other kinds of citations do not. Or, as I might add, all of the kinds of citations I mentioned much earlier, scientific and social research which is cited is also misused and liable to appear too authoritative. If you cite a crime study relating class and race to a sociologist or another social scientist, you will get a better understanding of what it does and does not say, what its inherent limitations are, then lawyers or justices could give it. Indeed, to attack Scalia's own approach, the Justices do a pretty poor job of being historians. Now when the cite a study on arscenic in drinking water, or on air pollution, how can they possibly know what they are talking about? They don't. At least no more than any well educated layman, which isn't nearly enough to excercise the kind of powers the Justices do. This is just the inherent problem in citing evidence from some field outside your own. This ultimatly argues for Scalia's position. Simply put it states, we don't know about anything but the law, so we should not consider anything but the law. The legislature can hold hearings, call experts, recieve pressure from public interests, and still they only do a decent job, hardly majesterial. So shouldn't the justices use a narrow interpretive scheme?
Following this Breyer moved the conversation to cases involving entities outside the country: Terrorism, multinational corporations, and people crossing borders. Breyer makes the point that these cases don't come in neat boxes, but crop up as contract cases or tort cases. This raises a good question. How much foreign law should a contract lawyer or a tort lawyer know? Because as more and more activity crosses borders, this kind of thing is inevitable.
Professor Dorsen asks, just as one state court might read another state's decisions and without any sense that they are bound by another state, decide, "by the cogency of the arguments, by the depth of the reasoning, by the logic. And if our courts look at another country's courts and they're able to find opinions that are persuasive on the merits, why couldn't that be a way of informing our judges in a positive way?"
Scalia replies, "Well, you're begging the question. I mean, your question assumes that it is up to the judge to find the correct answer. And I deny that. I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says." Again Scalia is really having a different conversation. A good amount of this is like sitting down with a historian and a physicist and asking them both how they use statements against interest to test bias. Scalia goes on to make a good statement that decisions about the law should be made legislatively by the representatives of all the people, not judicially by a small group of lawyers and judges. He ultimatly says, "I'm sure that intelligent men and women abroad can make very intelligent arguments, but that's not the issue, because it should not be up to me to make those moral determinations." I must criticize Dorsen for not having questions which address Scalia's judicial philosophy on its own terms.
Breyer responds by telling the story of a woman who tried to print up some pamphlets about a campaign in Britain, but ran afoul of campaign legislation. It was all very similar in general to the kinds of 501's and so forth that were so important in the recent American campaign. He then says, "would I be reasonable to say I'm curious how they dealt with it? I'm not bound by it. I mean, they didn't actually have that much written about it, but I'm curious." Scalia responds by saying , "Indulge your curiosity. Just don't put it in your opinions."
After this, the Justices take questions.
Someone asks if a question emerged that was totally new to us, but Canada had jurisprudence on it, what would Scalia do. He replied that addressing new problems is a legislatve problem, that the Constitution provides a floor upon which (I summarize in the metaphore) the rest of the law is built. He goes on to say, "It's not the job of the Constitution to change things by judicial decree; change is brought about by democracy. Abortion has been prohibited. You want to change that? American society think that's a terrible result? Fine. Persuade each other about that, pass a law and prohibit -- eliminate the laws against abortion."
The same questioner asked, "Isn't there a problem in using the foreign materials in that there is no way that a human being who is a judge in one country can have sufficient background information about another country to incorporate or to cite the jurisprudence of that other country?"
Breyer offers some verbiage but finally produces an answer: "I believe that all of us -- Justice Scalia, Justice O'Connor, Justice Thomas, the Chief, everyone -- has in a sense quite a similar framework that fits most legal cases. All of us look to texts, all of us are interested in history, all of us are interested in tradition, all of us are interested in precedent, all of us, in fact, want to understand the value or purpose that underlie the law, and all of us are interested in how our decision -- how it will turn out in terms of the consequences viewed through the prism of that value or purpose. But there are differences, I think, in the weights that different judges tend over time to give those elements in different cases. So that's why I think it's important not to overstate the differences. There are differences, but as law students or professors or judges or practitioners, the similarities are far more important, and I've seen that in my life, in whatever -- are far more important than the differences." So Breyer comes back to this core view of the world, a part of his metaphysics that tells him similarities are more important than differeces.
Another questioner says, "The oath is not to defend the United States, it's to defend the Constitution and protect the Constitution. " And then asks, " [How do we justify] that we protect and defend the Constitution as interpreted by a judge in Zimbabwe or Jamaica or India?"
Breyer starts off by saying, "Well, of course, no one thinks that you do." Then after a bit of meandering, he gets right to the point. "Do you think things outside the United States cannot be relevant to an understanding of how to apply the American Constitution? That's what's at issue. What is at issue is the extent to which you might learn from other places, facts that would help you apply the Constitution of the United States. " Nice articulation of his central point. Its the question to ask all those who recoil at the thought of foreign ideas contaminating the pure thought of American jurists. "I think Franklin and Hamilton and Jefferson and Madison and maybe even George Washington all would have thought that we, on occasion at least, can learn something about our country and our law and our document from what happens elsewhere. "
A questioner, a Professor Schwartz asks, "I think that the heart of the issue is really the function of the judge. Justice Scalia I think is absolutely right. He said it many times. The question is, what is the role of the judge? And there is a very sharp disagreement here. I would suggest, however, that contrary to Justice Scalia's view, the original intent theory is the novel one. The Weems case, which has notions of evolving standards, goes back to 1908. It was pretty much reaffirmed in the '30s. And the original intent notion really developed in the '70s. The fact is, I don't think you'll find much about original intent until you go back to Dred Scott, which is a decision based on original intent, as is, to a large extent, the Bradwell case, which says that Illinois can exclude women from the bar. I think, unfortunately, that response -- by the way, Alexander Hamilton said we should pay attention to the judgments of other nations. And when Madison was preparing for the Constitutional Convention, he read everything he could get his hands on about other governments. That doesn't mean that when we read this stuff, we have to buy it, but I think it means that we should try to learn. But that all depends on the function of the judge."
Scalia replies, "Let me answer that question. Alexander Hamilton, sir, was writing the Constitution, not interpreting one." But this ignores the fact that after the Constitution, these fellows kept their eye on other countries with a notion of what to do here. The Republicans were quite interested in what they could learn from the French Revolution. Of course Scalia could argue that most of them were legislators, or at least executives. I wonder how large is the field of the history of judicial philosophy?
Breyer then adds this interesting observation, starting with his emphasis on similarity: "I don't agree with you, Herman, that it's really a difference over the role of the judge. I think that it would be surprising if you could really get a psychoanalyst, that you would discover maybe we agree much more on the role of the judge than people think. [...] I think in a lot of areas of the law, the following shows up. It's not about the role of the judge. The judge is to apply the law. But there is a concern that if there are too few rules and too few clear approaches as to what goes and what doesn't go [...] if in fact you give judges too many open-ended procedures, rules and practices, what you will discover is that a man, a woman who suddenly has this power, for better or for worse, maybe unconsciously, maybe not even wanting to, will substitute her judgment, his judgment, for the judgment of the legislature. And that's wrong in a democracy. " He does come very close here to the Scalia position. "There are those who say that isn't the greater danger, the greater danger is the danger of the substitution of the unelected judge as a decision-maker for the elected parliamentarian congress -- member of Congress. And I think there is no way, actually, to resolve that." Scalia seems to have more faith that his method of adhearance to the text and original intent is the right resolution.
I'll leave off the last two questions as they don't really address this issue of the use of foreign law. Having spent the day (10 hours and 15 minutes) closely following both the C-Span broadcast and the transcript, I'm quite convinced that both Justices made sound points, have sensible positions, and that no one is talking about regarding foreign law as authoritative here. Those people who seem convicned that our soveriegnty is about to slip away can't point to Justice Breyer (though I think they will and already have since this symposium).